Errors-To: owner-tmbg-digest@tmbg.org Reply-To: tmbg-digest@tmbg.org Sender: owner-tmbg-digest@tmbg.org Precedence: bulk From: owner-tmbg-digest@tmbg.org To: tmbg-digest@tmbg.org Subject: tmbg-list Digest #8-27 tmbg-list Digest, Volume 8, Number 27 Monday, 27 July 1998 Today's Topics: Re: TMBG: Edison Museum Performance Re: TMBG: Re: TMBG (no it isn't, not really) (It is now.) Johns TMBG: hello, hello, it's good to be back.. TMBG: Re: tmbg-list Digest #8-12 Re: TMBG: Dial-A-Song Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: TMBG: here we go again--whatever happened to zappa???? oh, yeah, he's de Re: NON TMBG: Canada / apologies to LDB Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous TMBG: Re: TMBGmonopuff shows Re: NON TMBG:Hanson and Moxy Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: NON TMBG: Canada / apologies to LDB Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous TMBG: canada / the animals Re: TMBG: canada / the animals Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: TMBG: On topic: Off topic Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: TMBG: canada / the animals Re: NON TMBG: Canada / apologies to LDB Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous NON-TMBG: Dub Narcotic Sound System/Halo Benders Re: TMBG: here we go again--whatever happened to zappa???? oh, yeah, he's de Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous TMBG: Look at what I got!! (Giants experts needed!) Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Re: TMBG: here we go again--whatever happened to zappa???? oh, yeah, he's de Administrivia: If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing send mail to tmbg-digest-request@tmbg.org for instructions on how to be automatically removed. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. --------------------------------------------------------------------- tmbg-list is digested with Digest 3.5b (John Relph ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <19980725210313.15143.qmail@hotmail.com> From: "VoVat Quetzalcoatlus" Subject: Re: TMBG: Edison Museum Performance Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:03:11 PDT >Reply-To: Adam Tyner >Re: making money off of something like the Edison EP: I said this in my >last post, but I like to belabor points. ;-) We're all pretty die-hard >fans, right? If TMBG released an Edison Sessions EP through the Info Club, >most of us would buy it...so why don't they do it? Seriously, even though >Hello fell through, TMBG could release all sorts of stuff...maybe on a >quarterly EP... I mean, Dial-A-Songs, demos, the Edison Sessions, studio >outtakes, leftovers...all stuff we'd love to have, would be willing to pay >for, and have already been recorded, so there wouldn't be too much >overhead. Well, I would tend to agree, but I know nothing about the music business (aside from the fact that it's a hammer to keep us pegs in our holes). Nathan, who's already been poisoned by this industry DinnerBell@tmbg.org http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/5447/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980725210747.7131.qmail@hotmail.com> From: "VoVat Quetzalcoatlus" Subject: Re: TMBG: Re: TMBG (no it isn't, not really) (It is now.) Johns Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:07:45 PDT >Reply-To: Adam Tyner >Besides, would some of you really *want* the Johns on the list? I think >that would seriously stunt the list. Half the posts would be stupid >questions directed at the Johns, and the rest would be suck-ups. I'd fall >into both categories, probably. ;-) No, I don't think I would want the Johns on the list. If They were, I probably wouldn't post at all. I'd be afraid that the Johns would see me as some sort of drooling, obsessive fan if I praised Them, or as an over-critical grouch if I criticized Them. Nathan DinnerBell@tmbg.org http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/5447/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: KdsInThHal@aol.com Message-ID: <20e8090a.35ba49a0@aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:09:51 EDT Subject: TMBG: hello, hello, it's good to be back.. hello everybody!! :) vacations reallly suck. anyway i'm back from mine (and so happy to be). i've yet to download all i've missed in the past 2 weeks (i've watered down my 360 emails down to 94..) but i have a couple things to say. #1 ~ TMBG in buffalo. anyone have any info? remember i've been sans internet for 2 weeks so my source of info was cut off. i heard about this last night at a moxy fruvous show ...it sounds pretty credible.. the guy who told me said he heard it on buffalo's "edge" the other day... #2 ~ at said Moxy show, i spotted an old Apollo 18 tour shirt. neat! #3 ~ Moxy strikes again? somone shouted out "Istanbul!" and Jian of MF said in a singsong-y voice "I am mister worm..." hehehe.. cute.. anyways... i am so freaking glad to be home... now to see if the local cool station has been playing dr worm... sarah ------------------------------ From: KdsInThHal@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:34:41 EDT Subject: TMBG: Re: tmbg-list Digest #8-12 oh jeez.. i'm sure there have been enough replies to this, but forgive me, i've been gone for 2 weeks. i subscribed to digest from the list while i was gone so i'd have less esentially to download... and i end up missing a whole day's (so far....) messages and get a lame edited picture (that.... sucked, really) instead of linnell as a ridiculous cartoon devil? people PLEASE DON'T SEND FILES TO THE LIST... netiquitte rule - NEVER EVER EVER send files to lists or newsgroups. it's a big no-no, right up there under chain letters. NEVER EVER. thanks... sarah ------------------------------ From: HallOfEyes@aol.com Message-ID: <7ae43b24.35ba52bc@aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:48:43 EDT Subject: Re: TMBG: Dial-A-Song In a message dated 98-07-25 15:36:01 EDT, captainmarvel2@juno.com writes: << I am currently making an attempt at recording a good quality bootleg of DAS. I already have a few songs, and they came out well. Unfortunately, I have run out of time on my Phone-Card, so I can't continue this until I get a new one. But fear not, as soon as a get a new one, I will resume my recordings. >> It's all been done before. Several times in fact...there is the Power of Dial A Song bootleg, the PODAS 2 bootleg, Lo-Hi Fidelity (or whatever its called) and Free When You Call From Work...you could find any of these bootlegs on most tmbg pages that have a bootleg section... Jordan ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980725214543.2706.rocketmail@send1d.yahoomail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Lawrence P Solomon wrote: > > Hmmmm. Seems like songwriting craft and musicianship is taking a back > > seat to "passion" and personality here. > > what?!? are you implying that Moxy Fruvous can't craft songs and aren't > good musicians? sorry, but both Dave and Mike are *far* better > guitarists than Flansburgh ever will be, Sorry, can't agree, and neither do my guitarist friends who have listened to both groups. Flans is obviously no Joe Satriani, but he's comfortable in a large variety of idioms and has a terrific sound. If Dave and Mike really are very good guitarists, it doesn't show up in any of the MF records I've heard, and I sure wasn't blown away by the one MF show I've attended. > and Murray's ability to sing > and play bass at the same time is not one that a lot of bassists posess. Eh? A lot of bassists play and sing at the same time...Sting, John Entwistle, Roger Waters, Johnette Napolitano, Paul McCartney, Lemmy, Geddy Lee, Jack Bruce...that's just off the top of my head. > Dave can actually play the accordion properly, and they are all amazing > singers, harmonizers, and songwriters. Well, "amazing" is a stretch here...I think of Placido Domingo as an "amazing" singer, not the members of Moxy Fruvous (or of TMBG). And in the harmony department, well, TMBG, being a two-piece, can't really compete. As for the songs, they must speak for themselves. I think it obvious that MF hasn't done anything to compare to "Birdhouse in Your Soul" or "Ana Ng," and history, though an unreliable ally, is on my side so far. M. M'T. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: OPERCMM@RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:59:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Message-id: <01IZTR1KIGBG8ZIS2W@RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu> M. M'T sez: >Sorry, can't agree, and neither do my guitarist friends who have >listened to both groups. Flans is obviously no Joe Satriani, but he's >comfortable in a large variety of idioms and has a terrific sound. If >Dave and Mike really are very good guitarists, it doesn't show up in >any of the MF records I've heard, and I sure wasn't blown away by the >one MF show I've attended. Well, you have the right to not agree, but I have a right not to agree with you either. I feel, in my opinion, that Dave and Mike are better technically on guitar than Flansie. I've seen Dave-O break two strings during a song with heavy electric guitar content, and without missing his vocal part re-tune a string to make things easier and then play a grooving solo. Neither Fordy, Dave-O, or Flans is Satch. Satch makes his money off being a blow-your-mind guitar player. That's what he does. Flans doesn't do that and probably doesn't want to do that. Fordy and Dave-O don't do that either. We all know how well a screaming guitar fits in with TMBG music. How long did our buddy Schermerhorn last? >> and Murray's ability to sing >> and play bass at the same time is not one that a lot of bassists posess. >Eh? A lot of bassists play and sing at the same time...Sting, John >Entwistle, Roger Waters, Johnette Napolitano, Paul McCartney, Lemmy, >Geddy Lee, Jack Bruce...that's just off the top of my head. Okay, don't even start with Murray. Don't get me started on how much talent Murman has, okay? You do not want me to get started on it. I'd put Graham and Mur on the same page technically on the bass, but I'd put Mur higher in overall musicianship because I know more about him. I know Mur plays guitar too (and just started playing drums recently) and writes songs and sings really well. I've never seen Graham up front and showing his talent as much as Mur has because Murray's role in Fruvous allows him to show more where Graham (and any TMBG band member really) is delegated to being "behind" the Johns. There are not many bass players that sing and play. Yeah, Paul McCartney does it, but damn, Paul McCartney is PAUL MCCARTNEY. Geddy Lee is GEDDY LEE. These are bass players that people cite as major influences. These are bass players that make you realize that there is a bass player. They have an overflowing amount of talent. Your average bass player may sing every-so-often (like Graham). But the job of the bass player is to gell with the drummer and make the pocket so the rest of the band can sound good. Of course Fruvous is different. There are four incredible musicians in a line at the front of the stage and no one takes the back burner. I am always impressed with Murray's ability to play a bass line that flows with the tune while singing complex harmonies with three other people. [Side note: checkout Laura Love if you want a really talented lady who fronts the band, sings, and plays great basslines] >> Dave can actually play the accordion properly, and they are all amazing >> singers, harmonizers, and songwriters. >Well, "amazing" is a stretch here...I think of Placido Domingo as an >"amazing" singer, not the members of Moxy Fruvous (or of TMBG). And in >the harmony department, well, TMBG, being a two-piece, can't really >compete. As for the songs, they must speak for themselves. I think it >obvious that MF hasn't done anything to compare to "Birdhouse in Your >Soul" or "Ana Ng," and history, though an unreliable ally, is on my >side so far. The Frulads, to me, are amazing singers. The incredible range their music takes them (listen to the Gulf War Song from Bargainville and then tell me they aren't amazing singers - then see them do the song live and realize it wasn't some recording studio magic that made them sound that way) and the fact that they are on tour almost constantly, night in and out, leads me to believe they are amazing singers. I don't know what "MF hasn't done anything compare (sic) to "Birdhouse in Your Soul" or "Ana Ng"" means. Are you saying that Fruvous hasn't had a bit hit in England or a semi-mainstream song that everyone can attribute to them? Are you saying that Ana Ng and Birdhouse, in your opinion, are great songs, and Fruvous has never impressed you that way? I guess I don't understand what you mean there. You are absolutely correct in what you say about Fruvous and Canada. They hit really big when they started. But people didn't truly know what they were getting into. People liked King of Spain and that Authors song because they were witty and upbeat. Then Wood (my favorite Fruvous album) pissed off all those people who wanted funny songs off because it was a real album with complex music and brooding lyrics that spoke of relationships and experiences and not the Tory Government and the United States. But Fruvous has spent the last 4 years developing a large fanbase in the States because they were receptive to the band. Wood was John Henry. I'm sure there are plenty of TMBG fans that were lost because of John Henry. I know John Henry pissed me off. I loved my drum machine Johns and their music. It took me a while to get over the loss. Come to think of it, Flood kinda pissed me off too for awhile. The Johns have never in my mind surpassed the quality they had with Lincoln. But I didn't ditch TMBG when they changed. I said to myself, quietly enough so as to not seem so insane, that this band that has these horns and a rhythm section are the same two guys and I'm gonna keep listening until I either decide that this new stuff IS actually crap and not just different or I find the commonality in the two and decide that is what I like. Some closing stuff: No one person in Moxy Fruvous or TMBG are the best on their instrument. The magic comes from how well they work together. How well John and John complement each other. How well Mur, Dave-O, Fordy, and Jian mesh together on stage. That is what makes Fruvous my favorite group and what makes TMBG a group I enjoy. I still more than whole heartedly recommend Moxy Fruvous to every single person. They are incredible singers and have a very large range of musical styles they use. They have very intelligent lyrics that are actually saying something. Their live show is the best I've ever seen. Check out http://www.fruvous.com if you want fruvous information of want to find out when they are coming to your city next. Long post. Sorry *grin* - Chad ------------------------------ From: OverpassX@aol.com Message-ID: <29a28934.35ba9775@aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:41:56 EDT Subject: Re: TMBG: here we go again--whatever happened to zappa???? oh, yeah, he's dead <<*big, evil grin* <> How much do you actually know about music?? I've been playing for 15 years (since before I could read big words and do division to now getting various musical scholarships in college) ... there is SO much more involved than random stabs in the dark... to be good at improving you have to know your instrument really well... you can't just pick it up and write 20 good pop songs.... there is SO much more involved... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:43:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Bill Tatalovich Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Canada / apologies to LDB Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Malcolm MacTavish wrote: > the Canadian music scene is remarkably uniform, and in my experience, > when you try to own and operate a critical sensibility in the midst of > it, you are soon disabused of the notion that there is anything > special about groups like Moxy Fruvous. TMBG's music is still going to > be listened to in fifty years; MF is already just about forgotten in > their native land. Wow. Is that really true, that the Canadian music scene is uniform? I mean, I'm not from Canada or anything, so I really have no idea, but it seems to me as though there is a lot of diversity in Canadian music. After all, while Canada is home to Alanis Morrissette (sp?) and Celine Dion, it is also home to Treble Charger, Moxy Fruvous, Sarah Mclachlan, and the famed Bran Van 3000. BV3000 is so completely different from everything else I've heard from Canada, and I must say I like them profusely. In other news...I've been away for a few days, mainly because a large electrical storm knocked my e-mail out for a couple of days. So I'll just say the following: Li'l Depressed Boy, I apologize profusely. I must have been on crack when I made that post, but whatever the case, I'm sorry for being, well, a jerk. Following a self-imposed ban of a week from this list as punishment, The Rev |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Reverend Bill Tatalovich | Home page: | | | http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~wt3/ | | wt3@cec.wustl.edu | feedback for toddlers e-zine: | | personnel@kwur.wustl.edu | http://www.poboxes.com/fft/ | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:56:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Lawrence P Solomon Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Excerpts from internet.music.tmbg: 25-Jul-98 Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous by Malcolm MacTavish@yahoo. > Sorry, can't agree, and neither do my guitarist friends who have > listened to both groups. Flans is obviously no Joe Satriani, but he's > comfortable in a large variety of idioms and has a terrific sound. If > Dave and Mike really are very good guitarists, it doesn't show up in > any of the MF records I've heard, and I sure wasn't blown away by the > one MF show I've attended. all Flans ever plays are power chords. easy, easy, easy. I've *watched* him play. His solos are quite simple - I can play them and I've been playing guitar for a year. that's why they hired Eric Schermerhorn to play on Factory Showroom. > Eh? A lot of bassists play and sing at the same time...Sting, John > Entwistle, Roger Waters, Johnette Napolitano, Paul McCartney, Lemmy, > Geddy Lee, Jack Bruce...that's just off the top of my head. I'm not saying there aren't singing bassits out there, but it isn't the easiest thing in the world - not as easy as playing a guitar and singing. > Well, "amazing" is a stretch here...I think of Placido Domingo as an > "amazing" singer, not the members of Moxy Fruvous (or of TMBG). And in > the harmony department, well, TMBG, being a two-piece, can't really > compete. As for the songs, they must speak for themselves. I think it > obvious that MF hasn't done anything to compare to "Birdhouse in Your > Soul" or "Ana Ng," and history, though an unreliable ally, is on my > side so far. Have you ever heard The Gulf War Song? Gotta Get a Message to You (live version)? You Will Go to the Moon? King of Spain? I Love My Boss? I'd call the vocals amazing in all of those, and more... nothing to compare to Birdhouse or Ana Ng? I'd put BJ Don't Cry above at least Ana Ng... and possibly the Kids' Song or The Drinking Song above Birdhouse.... it seems that your opinion of Moxy Fruvous is based on two main things: 1. you think TMBG are the greatest band ever and couldn't possibly be not so great musicians 2. you are so intent on hating Moxy Fruvous that you automatically assume they aren't good at playing their instruments. why don't you open your mind and then listen to their songs? it might help. Lawrence Solomon http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~lps/ lps@andrew.cmu.edu "Everything sticks until it goes away, * This space inadvertently And the truth is we don't know anything." -TMBG * left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:07:16 -0400 Subject: TMBG: Re: TMBGmonopuff shows Message-ID: <19980725.231111.11390.1.erda@juno.com> From: erda@juno.com (g loworm) do you have to be 21 to get into Acme Underground ? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: OverpassX@aol.com Message-ID: <61a48bc1.35ba9f80@aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:16:15 EDT Subject: Re: NON TMBG:Hanson and Moxy << thanks to the Canadian-content regulations under which our broadcasters operate, I and my countrymen have had a *lot* more exposure to Moxy Fruvous than you are intimating here.......the Canadian music scene is remarkably uniform, >> Whatever happen to the Canadian "mosaic" image?... I guess we really know which country really is the "melting pot" with freedom of choice, and which one is the "mosiac" that the other one brags to be... from what you say here at least... but I've many Canadians friends who would disagree with every single word you said... <> And now my long schmeel: The Animals One upon a time, the animals decided they must do something heroic to meet the problems of "a new world". So they organized a school. They adopted an activity curriculum consisting of running, climbing, swimming, and flying. To make it easier to administer the cirriculum, all animals took all the subjects. The duck was excellent in swimming, in fact better than his instructor, but he only made passing grades in flying and was very poor in running. Since he was so slow in running he had to stay after school and also quit swimming to practice his running. This was kept up until his webbed feet were badly worn and he was only average in swimming. But average was acceptable in school, so nobody worried except that duck. The rabbit started at the top of his class in running, but had a nervous breakdown because of so much make-up work in swimming. The squirrel was excellent in climbing until he developed a frustration in the flying class where his teachers made him start from the ground up instead of the treetop down. He developed a charlie horse from overexertion and then got a C in climbing and a D in running. The eagle was a problem child and was disciplined severely. In climbing class he beat all the others to the top of the tree, but insisted on using his own way to get there. At the end of the year, an abnormal eel that could swim exceedingly well, and also run, climb, and fly a little, had the highest average and was valedictorian. The praire dogs stayed out of school and fought the tax levy because the administration would not add digging and burrowing to the cirriculum. They apprenticed their children to a badger and later joined the groundhogs and gophers to start a sucessful private school......... don't you just love our civilization where music classes are cut from curriculums because it is not considered as important as math classes.... NoraChica ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726032112.707.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:21:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous > I don't know what "MF hasn't done anything compare (sic) to "Birdhouse > in Your Soul" or "Ana Ng"" means. Are you saying that Fruvous hasn't > had a bit hit in England or a semi-mainstream song that everyone > can attribute to them? Are you saying that Ana Ng and Birdhouse, in > your opinion, are great songs, and Fruvous has never impressed you > that way? I guess I don't understand what you mean there. The latter. > Wood was John Henry. I'm sure there are plenty of TMBG fans > that were lost because of John Henry. I know John Henry pissed > me off. I loved my drum machine Johns and their music. It took > me a while to get over the loss. Come to think of it, Flood > kinda pissed me off too for awhile. The Johns have never > in my mind surpassed the quality they had with Lincoln. But > I didn't ditch TMBG when they changed. I believe Flood and John Henry to be the two strongest TMBG records--a minority opinion on this list, to be sure. M. M'T. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726032845.22804.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Canada / apologies to LDB Bill Tatalovich wrote: > Wow. Is that really true, that the Canadian music scene is uniform? I > mean, I'm not from Canada or anything, so I really have no idea, but it > seems to me as though there is a lot of diversity in Canadian music. > After all, while Canada is home to Alanis Morrissette (sp?) and Celine > Dion, it is also home to Treble Charger, Moxy Fruvous, Sarah Mclachlan, > and the famed Bran Van 3000. BV3000 is so completely different from > everything else I've heard from Canada, and I must say I like them > profusely. Yeah, things are changing for the better, it's true. Although I find BV3000 pretty derivative, it's true that they don't sound like any other Canadian group. The others all have imitators or near-clones within Canada--you'd be shocked by all the third-raters who are trying to coattail Sarah Maclachlan. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726034100.7762.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:41:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Lawrence P Solomon wrote: > all Flans ever plays are power chords. easy, easy, easy. I've > *watched* him play. His solos are quite simple - I can play them and > I've been playing guitar for a year. that's why they hired Eric > Schermerhorn to play on Factory Showroom. If I told you that Leadbelly was a great guitarist, would you say that he only played the blues scale--"easy, easy, easy"? It's easy to play Leadbelly's songs, and yet somehow impossible to sound like Leadbelly. > I'm not saying there aren't singing bassits out there, but it isn't the > easiest thing in the world - not as easy as playing a guitar and singing. Well, no, but again, stuff like this seems a bit beside the point. So far we've had defences of Moxy Fruvous that include the facts that they play many different instruments, can tune a guitar while singing, and can sing while playing their instruments. By this standard, the greatest musician in the history of the human race is Joe McGann the Incredible One-Man Band. > Have you ever heard The Gulf War Song? Gotta Get a Message to You (live > version)? You Will Go to the Moon? King of Spain? I Love My Boss? > I'd call the vocals amazing in all of those, and more... I've heard four of the above and I still thing the term "amazing" is being applied promiscuously. They're nice songs for people who like to wallow in harmony as though it were a big, steaming Jacuzzi. > it seems that your opinion of Moxy Fruvous is based on two main things: > > 1. you think TMBG are the greatest band ever and couldn't possibly be > not so great musicians > 2. you are so intent on hating Moxy Fruvous that you automatically > assume they aren't good at playing their instruments. why don't you > open your mind and then listen to their songs? it might help. You're suggesting that anyone who has listened to both TMBG and MF cannot POSSIBLY conclude that TMBG is the better group? Excuse me? And *I'm* the one who needs to develop an open mind? Besides, forgive me for saying so, but "open your mind" is the war cry of the lameass--something that can be said with equal validity at any time, to any*one*, because it means virtually nothing. Have you ever told someone to "open his mind" and been greeted by the reply "You're right! I've such been a fool. Thank you for showing me the Tao"? M. M'T. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:01:17 -0600 (MDT) From: J Kuemmerle Subject: TMBG: canada / the animals Message-ID: > Bill Tatalovich wrote: > > > Wow. Is that really true, that the Canadian music scene is uniform? > > I mean, I'm not from Canada or anything, so I really have no idea, but > > it seems to me as though there is a lot of diversity in Canadian > > music. After all, while Canada is home to Alanis Morrissette (sp?) > > and Celine Dion, it is also home to Treble Charger, Moxy Fruvous, > > Sarah Mclachlan, and the famed Bran Van 3000. as long as we're discussing that monolith that is canadian music, let's not forget to through in oscar peterson, ashley macisaac, gordon lightfoot, and (one of my personal favorites,) joni mitchell... --jim kuemmerle, who's always been a trouble child, breaking like the waves at malibu... (ps -- thanks for that parable, nora! i'm going to be passing that one on to quite a few people!) j.kuemmerle@m.cc.utah.edu http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/4668/ ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726041012.8786.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:10:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: TMBG: canada / the animals > as long as we're discussing that monolith that is canadian music, let's > not forget to through in oscar peterson, ashley macisaac, gordon > lightfoot, and (one of my personal favorites,) joni mitchell... > > --jim kuemmerle, who's always been a trouble child, breaking like the > waves at malibu... I make a point about the current Canadian music scene and you cite Oscar Peterson and Gordon Lightfoot? Um......OK. M. M'T. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: OPERCMM@RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:48:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Message-id: <01IZU2WA9BWQ8ZIOVS@RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu> M. M'T sez: >If I told you that Leadbelly was a great guitarist, would you say that >he only played the blues scale--"easy, easy, easy"? It's easy to play >Leadbelly's songs, and yet somehow impossible to sound like Leadbelly. What are you talking about? Define "greatest guitarist" please. I think what Lawrence was saying is that based on technic, and how hard he feels things are, Mike Ford and Dave Matheson are better guitar players than Flans. I agree with him. I think being in a band like Fruvous is (a band where improv is encouraged) better for technique. Fruvous plays a wider variety of music than TMBG does, so I would guess Fru-guitarists have better chops than Flansie. I don't know for sure, though. But I'd guess it is true. And Fruvous has more opportunity for improv and solos than TMBG does. Plus Fruvous tours constantly giving more of an opportunity to play in front of audiences. This makes for a more polished performance. >Well, no, but again, stuff like this seems a bit beside the point. So >far we've had defences of Moxy Fruvous that include the facts that >they play many different instruments, can tune a guitar while singing, >and can sing while playing their instruments. By this standard, the >greatest musician in the history of the human race is Joe McGann the >Incredible One-Man Band. Pardon me if I'm repeating myself, but what are you talking about? No one has defined what makes a person a great musician. I know I've given some examples of what makes me believe Mike and Dave-O have more in their technical and musical reportoire than Flansie. I'm not saying Flans is incompetant on terrible. He is not in a role which demands a crafty guitarist. From what I can tell, we are disagreeing with your opinion that Flans is a much better guitarist than Mike and Dave. We give our opininons of why we feel Mike and Dave are better guitarists. You point out again that Moxy Fruvous is not very good, with no basis for that opinion. >> Have you ever heard The Gulf War Song? Gotta Get a Message to You >(live >> version)? You Will Go to the Moon? King of Spain? I Love My Boss? >> I'd call the vocals amazing in all of those, and more... >I've heard four of the above and I still thing the term "amazing" is >being applied promiscuously. They're nice songs for people who like to >wallow in harmony as though it were a big, steaming Jacuzzi. Wallow in harmony like a big, steaming Jacuzzi? Pardon me if I am again repeating myself, but what are you talking about? What are people supposed to do with harmony? Put in their toaster? Hang it on the wall? Four part harmony is hard to do. It is rare to see a music group that is non-acapella use it, and especially to the extent that Moxy Fruvous has. To me, it is impressive and shows an incredible amount of musicianship that at a given point in time, there are 8 things going on in a Fruvous song. Murray plays a bassline and sings. Jian drums and sings. Mike plays guitar and sings. Dave plays guitar or accordian and sings. 8 things by 4 people. The four voices are harmonizing while the bassline and drum line are holding the beat doing more than a standard rock beat, and the guitar and accordian hold melody. That is amazing, incredible, and exciting to me. >> it seems that your opinion of Moxy Fruvous is based on two main >things: >> >> 1. you think TMBG are the greatest band ever and couldn't possibly be >> not so great musicians >> 2. you are so intent on hating Moxy Fruvous that you automatically >> assume they aren't good at playing their instruments. why don't you >> open your mind and then listen to their songs? it might help. >You're suggesting that anyone who has listened to both TMBG and MF >cannot POSSIBLY conclude that TMBG is the better group? Excuse me? And >*I'm* the one who needs to develop an open mind? Besides, forgive me >for saying so, but "open your mind" is the war cry of the >lameass--something that can be said with equal validity at any time, >to any*one*, because it means virtually nothing. Have you ever told >someone to "open his mind" and been greeted by the reply "You're >right! I've such been a fool. Thank you for showing me the Tao"? Um. What are you talking about??? Lawrence didn't suggest anything of the sort. He conjecturing that you aren't a very good judge of musicianship if you believe TMBG are great because of how well they play their instruments. They are really good because of the whole package. Linnell is not the accordian God sent to earth to regail us. Flans is not Robert Fripp's ace student who quit his day job playing guitar with Stu Hamm to play with his friend Linnell. But Linnell's accordian and Flans guitar, along with some Hickey drums and Graham Maby basslines playing some music written by the Johns is great stuff and we all enjoy it. I guess people here look at things like this: if you don't like something, come up with a good reason why you don't like it if you want to share your opinion with others. This is a conversation list and starting a conversation with Fred the Turtle sucks. I hate him. Just because I do. isn't going to help start a conversation. That's why people that hate Hanson for no good reason are annoying. Lawrence means "Open your mind and listen to their songs enough so that you can not make a fool out of yourself when talking about them". At least that's what I think he means. Better group is completely subjective and everyone has their own chance to decide that. Just give things a chance. If they piss you off, don't listen. If someone asks your opinion, say you don't like them. That's fine. But when trying to be a constructive part of a conversation, have good reasons why, okay? - Chad ------------------------------ Message-ID: <359E37E8.92C537EC@pacificnet.net> Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 06:10:53 -0800 From: Bongo Subject: Re: TMBG: On topic: Off topic leonard helfgott wrote: > personally, I don't consider your message to be one that I or hundreds of > other people need to read. That's my personal opinion. If other people > don't want to read it, then nobody will respind to it. Your personal > opinion is fine, but you don't have to post it to the list. > Cap'n Helfgott Give it up. You know what your doing is wrong. You can't justify it. I don't have time argue with you today but I've been seeing some others express a dislike of off topic posts. The best one though is the one that comes from the list administrator twice a month. -B O N G O ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:24:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Lawrence P Solomon Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Excerpts from internet.music.tmbg: 25-Jul-98 Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous by Malcolm MacTavish@yahoo. > You're suggesting that anyone who has listened to both TMBG and MF > cannot POSSIBLY conclude that TMBG is the better group? Excuse me? And no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you seem to be blindly "following" TMBG and assume that because you think they're so great, and because you like them more than Moxy Fruvous, they must be better musicians. I love TMBG... they are my absolute favorite band. I have traveled many thousands of miles to see TMBG... *but* I do not think they are great musicians. They are good at what they do in TMBG, but I don't think that anyone who knows anything about music can consider them to be great musicians. > *I'm* the one who needs to develop an open mind? Besides, forgive me > for saying so, but "open your mind" is the war cry of the > lameass--something that can be said with equal validity at any time, um, no, it's not valid at any time. it's valid when someone is completely going off on something without considering the fact that someone else *might* be right. I'm not saying we are definitely right that Moxy Fruvous are "better" in a subjective sense - because well, that's subjective. but you're showing that you really couldn't care less what we say, because your mind is made up. > to any*one*, because it means virtually nothing. Have you ever told > someone to "open his mind" and been greeted by the reply "You're > right! I've such been a fool. Thank you for showing me the Tao"? no, because people who are closed minded tend to want to stay that way. and, as you are so clearly demonstrating, mostly refuse to admit that they are closed minded. Lawrence Solomon http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~lps/ lps@andrew.cmu.edu "Everything sticks until it goes away, * This space inadvertently And the truth is we don't know anything." -TMBG * left blank. ------------------------------ From: CajunGram@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:28:10 EDT Subject: Re: TMBG: canada / the animals In a message dated 98-07-26 00:03:25 EDT, you write: << > Bill Tatalovich wrote: > > > Wow. Is that really true, that the Canadian music scene is uniform? > > I mean, I'm not from Canada or anything, so I really have no idea, but > > it seems to me as though there is a lot of diversity in Canadian > > music. After all, while Canada is home to Alanis Morrissette (sp?) > > and Celine Dion, it is also home to Treble Charger, Moxy Fruvous, > > Sarah Mclachlan, and the famed Bran Van 3000. as long as we're discussing that monolith that is canadian music, let's not forget to through in oscar peterson, ashley macisaac, gordon lightfoot, and (one of my personal favorites,) joni mitchell... >> Don't forget Neil Young... Graham ------------------------------ From: CajunGram@aol.com Message-ID: <5b89ffe9.35bab174@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:32:50 EDT Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Canada / apologies to LDB In a message dated 98-07-25 23:28:27 EDT, you write: << The others all have imitators or near-clones within Canada--you'd be shocked by all the third-raters who are trying to coattail Sarah Maclachlan. >> Don't that that the U.S. are strangers to clone groups though... Graham "Too tired to list any examples" Amsden ------------------------------ From: CajunGram@aol.com Message-ID: <9e5959a0.35bab412@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:43:57 EDT Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous In a message dated 98-07-26 00:23:17 EDT, you write: << M. M'T sez: >If I told you that Leadbelly was a great guitarist, would you say that >he only played the blues scale--"easy, easy, easy"? It's easy to play >Leadbelly's songs, and yet somehow impossible to sound like Leadbelly. What are you talking about? Define "greatest guitarist" please. I think what Lawrence was saying is that based on technic, and how hard he feels things are, Mike Ford and Dave Matheson are better guitar players than Flans. I agree with him. >> Hmm... In my humble opinion, I don't rate bands on their musical ability, but on how the music makes me feel. Some music just makes you feel a certian way, and I feel that you don't have to be Eric Clapton to write a good guitar song, or John Bonham to have a good drum beat... The point of this rambling is that even if Moxy or TMBG have better guitarists, what's the difference!?! In my opinion they are both awesome bands and not they both can play the blues scale in B, but because I love both of their music. It amazes me the competitiveness of some people. Why does your band have to be better and force that idea upon everyone ad nauseum? I have a feeling some of the people deep in this heated debate are the same people who spend their gradeschool years screaming, "My dad can beat up YOUR dad!" Graham ------------------------------ From: CajunGram@aol.com Message-ID: <30edb8a3.35bab588@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:50:15 EDT Subject: NON-TMBG: Dub Narcotic Sound System/Halo Benders I just picked up the new Dub Narcotic Sound System album to, and I'd just like to say it rocks. Hey, has anyone else heard of DNSS? Or the Halo Benders, which are a combination of DNSS and Built To Spill? Both are great bands, and you should all check them out. Go buy The Halo Benders "God Don't Make No Junk" and the DNSS "Boot Party" Both bands have sort of an avant garde funk kind of sound and are really worth checking out... Graham "Avante garde is just another name for bullshit" -John Lennon ------------------------------ Message-ID: <35BAE532.629B@fuse.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:13:38 -0700 From: jays your one-paged dictionary Organization: dial-a-song! 718-387-6962, narrrrrrrrr! Subject: Re: TMBG: here we go again--whatever happened to zappa???? oh, yeah, he's dead OverpassX@aol.com wrote: > > [big evil grin right back at you] > Awwww yeah, I want a little.... lets make this list a little more interesting You're on! :) > How much do you actually know about music?? I've been playing for 15 years > (since before I could read big words and do division to now getting various > musical scholarships in college) ... there is SO much more involved than > random stabs in the dark... to be good at improving you have to know your > instrument really well... you can't just pick it up and write 20 good pop > songs.... there is SO much more involved... Again you misestimate my words! Tsk, tsk. True improvisation is a complex technique, and my position can be summed up easily--Earl Klugh improvises. Isaac Hanson does not. My statement was not that improvisation is constituted of "stabs in the dark," but that that's how many current bands create their music. Yes, you CAN just pick up an instrument and write twenty "good" pop songs. Two words: Green Day. If you know anything about music in general and their music at all, you shall know exactly what I mean. Peace, love, and good happiness stuff, Jay. -- jayhc, arguing but not flaming. e-mail: sirjamez@fuse.net, phonebook@tmbg.org aol im: SaturnChrd, PhoneBookJ irc: PhoneBook "and sadly the cross-eyed bear's been put to sleep behind the stairs, and his shoes are laced with irony." --tmbg "Hey, some people take drugs and some people like to have sex all day, I like to watch my bees as I make music, so what." --steve vai -- ------------------------------ Message-ID: <35BAE8C2.585@fuse.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:28:50 -0700 From: jays your one-paged dictionary Organization: dial-a-song! 718-387-6962, narrrrrrrrr! Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Lawrence P Solomon wrote: > all Flans ever plays are power chords. easy, easy, easy. I've > *watched* him play. His solos are quite simple - I can play them and > I've been playing guitar for a year. that's why they hired Eric > Schermerhorn to play on Factory Showroom. I'm afraid I must disagree with you on one point. Flans does not play *all* power chords--he is a guitarist of simplicity, I agree, but he is not BJ Armstrong by any stretch. Flans plays major and minor chords, mostly (though he plays other types, as well. Look at Shy, or Birds Fly, or Space Suit), but he is not fifth chord player. The major application of fifth/power chords today is by punk players who really don't want to have to think. There are other, more honorable uses, but I shan't get into them right now .. Suffice it to say that no, Flans does NOT play all power chords. His solos are simple, though. But so are Eric's--he's not the flash-meister most people on this list make him out to be. peace, love, and good happiness stuff, jay -- jayhc, who thinks that eric added something good to the band. e-mail: sirjamez@fuse.net, phonebook@tmbg.org aol im: SaturnChrd, PhoneBookJ irc: PhoneBook "and sadly the cross-eyed bear's been put to sleep behind the stairs, and his shoes are laced with irony." --tmbg "Hey, some people take drugs and some people like to have sex all day, I like to watch my bees as I make music, so what." --steve vai -- ------------------------------ Message-ID: <35BAEAFE.4E4C@fuse.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:38:23 -0700 From: jays your one-paged dictionary Organization: dial-a-song! 718-387-6962, narrrrrrrrr! Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Malcolm MacTavish wrote: > I believe Flood and John Henry to be the two strongest TMBG records--a > minority opinion on this list, to be sure. > > M. M'T. *grin* I agree wholeheartedly, and I'm sure I'm not the only one--John Henry is my favorite album, Flood pulling in a close second. Both musically and poetically, they are exquisite ... and both find their respective ways to my cd player somewhat more often than any other tmbg record. peace, love, and good happiness stuff, jay. -- jayhc, who thinks those worried blues ain't bad. e-mail: sirjamez@fuse.net, phonebook@tmbg.org aol im: SaturnChrd, PhoneBookJ irc: PhoneBook "and sadly the cross-eyed bear's been put to sleep behind the stairs, and his shoes are laced with irony." --tmbg "Hey, some people take drugs and some people like to have sex all day, I like to watch my bees as I make music, so what." --steve vai -- ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726055016.20681.rocketmail@send1e.yahoomail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:50:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous OPERCMM@RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu wrote: > > What are you talking about? Define "greatest guitarist" please. I think > what Lawrence was saying is that based on technic, and how hard > he feels things are, Mike Ford and Dave Matheson are better guitar > players than Flans. I agree with him. > I think being in a band like Fruvous is (a band where improv is > encouraged) better for technique. Fruvous plays a wider variety > of music than TMBG does, so I would guess Fru-guitarists have better > chops than Flansie. I don't know for sure, though. But I'd guess > it is true. And Fruvous has more opportunity for improv and solos > than TMBG does. Plus Fruvous tours constantly giving more > of an opportunity to play in front of audiences. This makes for > a more polished performance. I understand what you guys are saying: that the Moxy Fruvous guitarists are better, technically, than Flans--more precise, better at improvising, probably know more chords. I am saying that this is irrelevant to the point I originally made, which is that there is nothing in particular distinguishing Moxy Fruvous from any other four- or five-piece folk group which sings nice, careful, professional harmonies and makes a lot of what it considers to be clever jokes. TMBG is completely unique and their music has some testosterone in it. It makes you want to get out of your chair and shake your ass about like an orangutan. Sometimes, it also makes you want to cry, or sing, or laugh your head off. They have the emotional range of Jane Austen and the bent wit of Michael O'Donoghue. I simply don't see how the same can be said of Moxy Fruvous. By comparison, their music is pedestrian. It could have been made in the '60s, '70s, or '80s, by any four yobs in the Musicians' Union. There is no stamp of individuality on it; if another performer played one of their songs, you wouldn't go "Oh! That's got to be a Moxy Fruvous song" unless you already knew it from the catalogue. That's all I'm saying. Admittedly, it doesn't leave a lot of room for counterargument beyond "No, you're wrong." The objective referents of music quality *do* exist, but they are all insufficient--the judgment of history, for example--or completely irrelevant, like the ones you guys are bringing in. So we're stuck. But please don't get the idea that I am not understanding what you are saying. > Wallow in harmony like a big, steaming Jacuzzi? Pardon me if I > am again repeating myself, but what are you talking about? What are > people supposed to do with harmony? Put in their toaster? Hang it on > the wall? Four part harmony is hard to do. It is rare to see a > music group that is non-acapella use it, and especially to > the extent that Moxy Fruvous has. To me, it is impressive and > shows an incredible amount of musicianship that at a given > point in time, there are 8 things going on in a Fruvous song. > Murray plays a bassline and sings. Jian drums and sings. Mike > plays guitar and sings. Dave plays guitar or accordian and sings. > 8 things by 4 people. The four voices are harmonizing while the > bassline and drum line are holding the beat doing more than > a standard rock beat, and the guitar and accordian hold > melody. That is amazing, incredible, and exciting to me. And as I've tried to point out, I see the same thing several times over at my local Street Performers Festival every year. A group which sings in harmony while playing its instruments is not exactly a phenomenon from Mars. It's exciting and wonderful, but only in the way that a cat, a flower, and ice cream are all exciting and wonderful. > >You're suggesting that anyone who has listened to both TMBG and MF > >cannot POSSIBLY conclude that TMBG is the better group? Excuse me? > > Um. What are you talking about??? Lawrence didn't suggest > anything of the sort. Yes he bloody well did. He implied directly that I hadn't "listened to the songs" and that if I would only listen to Moxy Fruvous's music I would change my opinion. > Better group is completely subjective and everyone has > their own chance to decide that. Just give things a chance. > If they piss you off, don't listen. If someone asks your > opinion, say you don't like them. That's fine. But when > trying to be a constructive part of a conversation, have > good reasons why, okay? > - Chad Well, gee, Chad, I think the reasons you've presented for considering Moxy Fruvous a better group than TMBG are mostly pretty worthless. I suppose I could close *my* e-mail with a condescending paragraph on Arguments for Dummies, but I won't bother. M. M'T. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: OPERCMM@RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:58:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Message-id: <01IZU7N3QKEI8ZIOVS@RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu> >I understand what you guys are saying: that the Moxy Fruvous >guitarists are better, technically, than Flans--more precise, better >at improvising, probably know more chords. I am saying that this is >irrelevant to the point I originally made, which is that there is >nothing in particular distinguishing Moxy Fruvous from any other four- >or five-piece folk group which sings nice, careful, professional >harmonies and makes a lot of what it considers to be clever jokes. Could you do me a favor and name some more four or five piece folk groups with four part harmony? Personally, I really enjoy this style of music and would love to support these musicians. I also know many many other people who would also enjoy this music. I find it incredibly odd that you pidgeonhole Fruvous's music into a category so readily. I've never seen that before. Most people have a hard time placing Moxy Fruvous into a category. If I heard Get in the Car, I figure Fruvous for a straight ahead pop band (I don't use the word pop here as a band thing - more as a style). If I heard King of Spain and the live Gotta Get a Message to You, I figure them an acapella group. If I heard No No Raja, I'd figure them a world music group. If I heard Johnny Saucep'n or Kid's Song, I'd figure them to be a satirical humor group. If I heard Today's The Day That We Fight Back, I'd figure they'd be a politically motivated group. Michigan Militia has a sorta funk/hip-hop feel kinda like the new Mono Puff album does. I dunno. To me, saying a group sings nice, careful, professional harmonies and makes a lot of clever jokes is a compliment and recommendation to check them out. To each his their own I guess. >TMBG is completely unique and their music has some testosterone in it. >It makes you want to get out of your chair and shake your ass about >like an orangutan. Sometimes, it also makes you want to cry, or sing, >or laugh your head off. They have the emotional range of Jane Austen >and the bent wit of Michael O'Donoghue. I simply don't see how the >same can be said of Moxy Fruvous. Gulf War Song is a beautiful song. Listen to the words and it is a statement on involvement in the Persian Gulf War. Fly is a good song. Listen to the words and watch Jian sing it and it is a heartfelt song about the point in a relationship where the people involved realize that it isn't meant to be. Today's the Day that We Fight Back is a rollicking folk song. Listen to the words and it's a statement against the Harris Government and their controlling of Ontario. Get in the Car is a straight ahead pop chart. Listen to the words and it is saying absolutely nothing. But it sure gets me out of my chair and makes me shake my ass about. I agree TMBG is very original in its music. They don't write music to styles, they right music to moods so they fit the lyrics. But that is not the only valid way to write music. Just because you write music to a style doesn't invalidate your music. >> >You're suggesting that anyone who has listened to both TMBG and MF >> >cannot POSSIBLY conclude that TMBG is the better group? Excuse me? > >> Um. What are you talking about??? Lawrence didn't suggest >> anything of the sort. >Yes he bloody well did. He implied directly that I hadn't "listened to >the songs" and that if I would only listen to Moxy Fruvous's music I >would change my opinion. No he didn't. Lawrence did NOT say "Anyone who has listened to both TMBG and Moxy Fruvous could not possibly conclude that TMBG is the better group". As I said, "Better Group" is subjective completely and totally. The Better Group is the Group that you, as a person, enjoy the most. I could choose my favorite group by saying that it was Group X because they play lots of G's. That's perfectly valid. >> Better group is completely subjective and everyone has >> their own chance to decide that. Just give things a chance. >> If they piss you off, don't listen. If someone asks your >> opinion, say you don't like them. That's fine. But when >> trying to be a constructive part of a conversation, have >> good reasons why, okay? >Well, gee, Chad, I think the reasons you've presented for considering >Moxy Fruvous a better group than TMBG are mostly pretty worthless. I >suppose I could close *my* e-mail with a condescending paragraph on >Arguments for Dummies, but I won't bother. Look, to me, this argument isn't me trying to prove to you that Moxy Fruvous is a better band. I already know that. But I also know that I don't choose which band is better in your eyes. I just choose mine. What you view as not an asset to a band, someone else can view as essential. When you post to the list something like all Moxy Fruvous is pedestrian and any 4 yobs from the musicians union can do it, it makes you look like a bozo to me, because it seems completely unfounded. That statement has nothing to do with the "Better Group" in anyones eyes. It is saying the group is a bunch if no-talent hacks that can be replaced by any four guys in monkey suits with the same results. I disagree with that, and I feel that I have put forward many good points supporting myself and my belief that the lads in Moxy Fruvous are damn talented and are contributing to the music industry at large and to the lives of their fans. Note that I nowhere said They Might Be Giants does not. TMBG are also damn talented and are contributing to the music industry at large and to the lives of their fans. Note that I nowhere say you should like Moxy Fruvous more than any other band. I could care less what your favorite band is. I sure hope you like They Might Be Giants though, because that is the commonality amongst all us here. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:25:37 -0700 Subject: TMBG: Look at what I got!! (Giants experts needed!) Message-ID: <19980726.022858.3814.1.jnielsen69@juno.com> From: jnielsen69@juno.com (Josh Nielsen) Did anyone else get this?? Josh Nielsen jnielsen69@juno.com http://www.angelfire.com/or/jnielsen/ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/4091 ICQ #1337243 On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:55:30 -0400 Steve writes: > >Hi, my name is Steve Gordon, and I'm looking for experts >like you. > >I'm starting a website directory of experts for every >major singer, band, and kind of music. Sometimes people >have a specific question about a singer or a band >but don't know where to find the answer, or fail to find >the answer after hunting through a dozen websites. > > That's why I'm putting together a website with a >collection of e-mail links to experts, people like >yourself. If you're interested, all you'll have to do is >answer occasional e-mailed questions about your area of >expertise. As an "expert" you needn't know every little thing >about the subject matter, simply be able to answer common questions >(and perhaps a few uncommon ones!). > >Why do it? >1) Thousands of people from all over the world who come to >our site will see you labeled as an "expert" for the singer/band >in question. >2) The questions you'll get will be about your favorite >topic, your singer/band, and you'll get to show off >your expertise and make new friends. >3) Although only your e-mail address will be listed, >your correspondence with questioners and word of mouth >can help generate increased traffic for your website. >4) It's completely free, to you and the questioners. >5) If you ever want to be taken off our directory, write me >and I'll remove you immediately. > >If you're interested all I need is your name, e-mail >address, the name of the singer/band, >and any special areas of expertise (it can be humorous). >I've included some sample examples below. > >Once I get your response back, I'll send out a confirmation >once you're added to the directory as well as the exact >webaddress you can find your listing on. >You can see a similar directory I've set up at >http://www.allexperts.com/tv/index.shtml > >If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to let me >know. To date I've already signed up over 190 expert volunteers! > >--Steve Gordon >Allexperts music directory coordinator >PS If you're wondering "why me?" it's because I came across >your website and was very impressed! > >Sample examples > >Name: Bob Smith >Singer/Band: Madonna >Special area of expertise: Know every song backwards and forwards >E-mail address: Sample@example.com > >Name: Jane Smith >Singer/Band: The Spice Girls >Special area of expertise: Know all the behind the scene wrangling >in the band >E-mail address: Sample@example.com > > >********************************** >Now it's your turn: > >E-mail address: >Your Name: >Singer/Band: >Special area of expertise: >(if you don't have a special area of expertise, tell me a few things >you really like about the music). > >And lastly, if you have other areas of expertise, let me know. Also >feel free to forward this to a friend who might be interested; we >can always use more experts! > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726110434.28237.qmail@hotmail.com> From: "VoVat Quetzalcoatlus" Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 04:04:33 PDT >Reply-To: Malcolm MacTavish >There is no stamp of individuality >on it; if another performer played one of their songs, you wouldn't go >"Oh! That's got to be a Moxy Fruvous song" unless you already knew it >from the catalogue. Would you automatically know a TMBG song that another band covered if you didn't already know it "from the catalogue"? And I'm not talking about "Particle Man" here. If some other band played, say, a song from "John Henry" or "Factory Showroom," and you hadn't heard either of those albums before, would you be able to identify it as a TMBG song? Nathan DinnerBell@tmbg.org http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/5447/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726113624.24466.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 04:36:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous Lawrence P Solomon wrote: I love TMBG... they are my absolute favorite band. I have > traveled many thousands of miles to see TMBG... *but* I do not think > they are great musicians. They are good at what they do in TMBG, but I > don't think that anyone who knows anything about music can consider them > to be great musicians. In terms of technique. But, as everyone understands, a musician can be considered great without being a master of his instrument, as Keith Richards will tell you. There is a performer-technician distinction here that you aren't observing. You can't simply say "Well, Flans isn't a great guitarist because he can't tune a Fender Strat in a hurricane or play diminished-7th chords behind his back." Discussions about technique have their place, but I am not and never was talking about pure technique here. > um, no, it's not valid at any time. it's valid when someone is > completely going off on something without considering the fact that > someone else *might* be right. I'm not saying we are definitely right > that Moxy Fruvous are "better" in a subjective sense - because well, > that's subjective. but you're showing that you really couldn't care > less what we say, because your mind is made up. And you're not? I'm sorry, but you're scrambling desperately for a moral high ground that is just not there. In attempting to curry favour with the reading audience by accusing me of having a "closed mind," you are abandoning the actual argument. I have not accused you of anything similar--I respect your views enough to assume that they are honestly held and subject to change. "Have an open mind" is an escape hatch that any halfwit can trigger at any time. Try sticking to the subject instead. > > to any*one*, because it means virtually nothing. Have you ever told > > someone to "open his mind" and been greeted by the reply "You're > > right! I've such been a fool. Thank you for showing me the Tao"? > > no, because people who are closed minded tend to want to stay that way. > and, as you are so clearly demonstrating, mostly refuse to admit that > they are closed minded. _Tres elegant_. My denial that I have a "closed mind" is proof that I have a closed mind. Why don't you ask me when I stopped beating my wife? M. M'T. (actually, I'm single, ladies!) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726115256.27851.rocketmail@send1e.yahoomail.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 04:52:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous OPERCMM@RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu wrote: > > Could you do me a favor and name some more four or five piece folk > groups with four part harmony? Personally, I really enjoy this > style of music and would love to support these musicians. I also > know many many other people who would also enjoy this music. Hrmm...you've got me here; I mostly see these groups busking on the street or on the bill at the Edmonton Folk Festival. Harmony still isn't hip again yet. The past is rife with such groups--Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young; the Mamas & the Papas; the Lovin' Spoonful. You might want to check out Great Big Sea if you're into this sort of thing--here in Canada they're Moxy Fruvous '98, though without the humour, as far as I can tell. Canada's Barenaked Ladies also looked like going in this direction with their first hit single, but evolved in a more pop direction and put the lead singer out front, where a lead singer belongs. (Insert smiley here.) > I find it incredibly odd that you pidgeonhole Fruvous's music into > a category so readily. I've never seen that before. Most people > have a hard time placing Moxy Fruvous into a category. If I heard > Get in the Car, I figure Fruvous for a straight ahead pop band (I > don't use the word pop here as a band thing - more as a style). If I > heard King of Spain and the live Gotta Get a Message to You, I > figure them an acapella group. If I heard No No Raja, I'd figure them > a world music group. If I heard Johnny Saucep'n or Kid's Song, I'd > figure them to be a satirical humor group. If I heard Today's The > Day That We Fight Back, I'd figure they'd be a politically motivated > group. Michigan Militia has a sorta funk/hip-hop feel kinda like > the new Mono Puff album does. The label "folk" covers most of the pseudo-categories you just named. Or am I wrong--folk groups aren't noted for their warm multi-part harmonies, their embrace of international styles, their humour, and their political commitment? These are practically defining characteristics of the genre. I mean, it *sounds* like you're saying, among other things, "Yeah, see, they're different from most folk groups 'cause they're left-wing. They did an anti-war song and everything!" > I agree TMBG is very original in its music. They don't write > music to styles, they right music to moods so they fit the > lyrics. But that is not the only valid way to write music. > Just because you write music to a style doesn't invalidate your > music. True, and I like a lot of genre musicians; it's a question of whether you are trapped by the genre or you transcend it. > When you post to the list something like > all Moxy Fruvous is pedestrian and any 4 yobs from the musicians > union can do it, it makes you look like a bozo to me, because it > seems completely unfounded. That statement has nothing to do > with the "Better Group" in anyones eyes. It is saying the group > is a bunch if no-talent hacks that can be replaced by any four > guys in monkey suits with the same results. I disagree with that, > and I feel that I have put forward many good points supporting > myself and my belief that the lads in Moxy Fruvous are damn > talented and are contributing to the music industry at large and > to the lives of their fans. I can only refer people to Moxy Fruvous's music, and advise that they shouldn't spend any money on it until they've gone some way toward making up their minds. My cuts against MF may have made me "look like a bozo in [your eyes]," but they can only be judged by listening to the music; they're not irrelevant, weird, or wrong on their face. M.M'T. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <19980726120137.28735.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 05:01:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Malcolm MacTavish Subject: Re: NON TMBG: Moxy Fruvous VoVat Quetzalcoatlus wrote: > Would you automatically know a TMBG song that another band covered if > you didn't already know it "from the catalogue"? And I'm not talking > about "Particle Man" here. If some other band played, say, a song from > "John Henry" or "Factory Showroom," and you hadn't heard either of those > albums before, would you be able to identify it as a TMBG song? Oh yes. I've experienced the converse of the phenomenon you describe, because the day I bought "Factory Showroom" I plopped it down on the CD player, and when "New York City" came on, I immediately thought, "Hang on...the guys didn't write *this*." And I bet the same thing happened to several hundred other people on this list. If we can tell TMBG songs from other people's when TMBG is playing them, we should be able to tell them apart when Bruce Springsteen or Billy Joel is playing them, nay? Well, maybe not, and there's no way for us to conjure up a scientific answer to your question. Some of Flans' songs would be hard to spot in the mouth of another artist because he likes to make pastiches out of archaisms. But Linnell's stuff, I think I'd recognize. Hell, with both Johns you'd think the lyrics would be a dead giveaway. "Oh, a song about James K. Polk...wonder who wrote this..." M. M'T. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-Id: Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:06:16 -0400 (EDT) From: kbrodbec@remcen.ehhs.cmich.edu (Kirsten Brodbeck) Subject: Re: TMBG: here we go again--whatever happened to zappa???? oh, yeah, he's dead >Yes, you CAN just pick up an instrument and write twenty "good" pop >songs. Two words: Green Day. If you know anything about music in >general and their music at all, you shall know exactly what I mean. I dunno; you should hear my attempts. They're technically songs, I suppose, but jeez... ;) Maybe it's my ability as a lyricist that's lacking; I suppose, "He's got a tv show in Cleveland" isn't the world's best opening line... Kirsten -- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] "And she said losing love is like a window in your heart Everybody sees you're blown apart..." - Paul Simon "Graceland" Kirsten Brodbeck AKA Crow kbrodbec@remcen.ehhs.cmich.edu ------------------------------ End of tmbg-list Digest #8-27 *****************************