Errors-To: owner-tmbg-digest@tmbg.org Reply-To: tmbg-digest@tmbg.org Sender: owner-tmbg-digest@tmbg.org Precedence: bulk From: owner-tmbg-digest@tmbg.org To: tmbg-digest@tmbg.org Subject: tmbg-list Digest #27-19 tmbg-list Digest, Volume 27, Number 19 Sunday, 19 March 2000 Today's Topics: TMBG: Meat OUT Re: NON-TMBG: Meat James Ensor (or anyone else for that matter) TMBG: Great American Meat Out Re: TMBG: Great American Meat Out NON-TMBG: Meat. Re: NON-TMBG: Meat James Ensor (or anyone else for that matter) TMBG: Re: Great American Meat Out NON-TMBG: Meat Out Re: NON-TMBG: Meat Out Re: NON-TMBG: Meat Out Re: NON-TMBG: Great American Meat Out Re: NON-TMBG: Meat Out Re: NON-TMBG: Great American Meat Out Re: TMBG: Similarities and Remixes Administrivia: If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing send mail to tmbg-digest-request@tmbg.org for instructions on how to be automatically removed. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. --------------------------------------------------------------------- tmbg-list is digested with Digest 3.5b (John Relph ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gegatron@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 03:16:16 EST Subject: TMBG: Meat OUT hey why is the great american meat out on a monday? every friday in lent is a Meat Out for Catholics! Also i see no similarity to its so loud in here and till my head falls off except for the fact that they TOTALLY ROCK!!! HELL YEAH!!!!! WOO HOOOOOOO!!!! ------------------------------ From: pzickler@iris.mtvernon.wednet.edu Message-Id: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 01:14:50 -0800 Subject: Re: NON-TMBG: Meat James Ensor (or anyone else for that matter) Domesticated animals are raised in a way that is environmentally inefficient. This is the main argument (aside from nutrition) against eating them. No one is suggesting cows should run free. What intelligent vegetarians do suggest, however, is that it takes an inordinate amount of water, grain, energy, etc... to raise a steer that will supply humans with a relatively small amount of food. This is even more true of chickens. If, instead of raising the animal, a farmer raised a vegetable or grain crop, they could produce a much greater amount of food, conserve water and land, and avoid creating pollution from erosion, slaughterhouses, and cow-produced methane gas, which is actually a huge burden on the environment (cows make a lot of gas). I don't have any particular love for cattle, I just think raising and eating them is a stupid and inefficient way for us to feed ourselves. As for hunting and killing animals, I think if someone is willing to eat an animal, they should be willing to kill it. I don't mind catching a fish or digging a clam now and then, so I'm willing to eat seafood. I don't think I could shoot a cow in the head, hack off its limbs and skin, cut it up into pieces, and eat it. So I don't. Does that make any sense to anyone? PZ not skinny and sickly ------------------------------ From: cordelia@stayfree.co.uk Message-Id: <4.1.20000318095923.009169d0@pop3.stayfree.co.uk> Message-Id: <4.1.20000318095923.009169d0@pop3.stayfree.co.uk> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:21:53 +0000 Subject: TMBG: Great American Meat Out Well fancy the old meat eating debate cropping up on THIS list. Its always good to hear those old classics. I particularly like "all the cows wouldn't exist if we didn't raise them for food and they have a nice life as a result" (so lets breed extra humans to eat, why should the cows have all the fun?), "a lot of vegetarians I know are thin and weedy" (a lot of meat eaters I know are fat selfish unhealthy slobs) and "if we take this to its logical conclusion we wouldn't be able to eat plants either" (that one's so dumb I don't know where to start). But however the argument goes it always ends up with "yeah well, I LIKE meat and I'm not going to stop shoving it into my fat face whenever possible", which is what its really all about. A hundred years from now people who talk like that are going to sound how slave owners in the 19th century sound to us now. So, lets get back to TMBG... er.... Anyone know whether THE JOHNS eat dead animals or not? Alan Jenkins ------------------------------ Message-ID: <38D38DBB.DF9209D9@stargate.net> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:07:55 -0500 From: lawrence solomon Subject: Re: TMBG: Great American Meat Out cordelia@stayfree.co.uk wrote: > So, lets get back to TMBG... er.... Anyone know whether THE JOHNS eat dead > animals or not? they definitely do: Info Club: If you could be any kind of animal, what would you be? Linnell: I'd be a delicious steak dinner and Info Club: What are your favorite foods? TMBG: On the road we are always on the look out for Thai, Vietnamese, Indian, and Mexican. And barbecue when we're up for it. and *I*, for one, am eating a delicious steak dinner on Monday, March 20, and I think everyone who agrees that the people at PETA are crazy should make an extra special effort to eat meat on Monday. I might even have a side of animal medical research... :) -- lawrence solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * zaph@fruhead.com "You knew it was true, when I held you, there were no secrets. I believed it." -Moxy Fruvous, _I Will Hold On_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:28:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason A. Glastetter" Subject: NON-TMBG: Meat. Message-ID: I found the PETA ads dumb because they had a point, but they poorly implemented it. It was more of just an "ok" for kids to drink beer & not a whole "you shouldn't drink milk." Even though they intended the latter. Anyway, telling college kids to drink beer is like shooting fish in a barrel. Second, when I was little, I did have the desire to eat people's pets (I had no animals of my own). And I really hate when vegetarians use that arguement. For a while I was mocking those people who were vegetarians but ate fish (or sometimes chicken) & claimed I was a vegetarian, except I eat pork...just to try and show them that you aren't a really a vegetarian if you eat chicken or fish, etc. I still don't see why you can't eat meat on Fridays during Lent, but fish is ok... Okay, I'm not a vegetarian; I'm going to try and be one of these days (though I am already pale and sickly--it's not a vegetarian thing). But I do believe that's a personal decision and someone should not throw blood on McDonalds (I have no problem with the Meat Out, I'm talking about more radical things). In much the same way that even if you feel abortion is wrong, one should not harrass the people who have abortions (harrassing the govt. is different). I'mjust using this as an example, so I don't want everyone to get in a pro-life pro-choice arguement, becayse frankly, it doesn't matter either way to me. Let's just say I find it sad that we care so much about unborn babies, but seem to stop caring until they take a gun to their 6 year old classmate. Oh, yeah & now for some TMBG related stuff: is it true they are coming to Binghamton? --Jason Glastetter ==================================================================== http://www.poingly.com - - Home of the infamous Poingly online game! http://www.mp3.com/poingly - - Download Poingly mp3 songs for FREE!! ==================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:11:51 -0500 From: "Jose" Message-ID: <8b0d4k$1ab4$1@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Organization: They Might Be Giants, Unofficially http://www.tmbg.org Subject: Re: NON-TMBG: Meat James Ensor (or anyone else for that matter) PZ, I will agree that raising cows is not the most efficient use of land. For that reason, we must consider this and eventually move toward more efficient means of production or toward a diet with less meat. As land will be a more scarce commodity in the future, I think these options will become our only ones someday. For now, however, there really isn't a problem with farm size. This country (and nearly every country in the world) has plenty of food. Cow grazing doesn't lead to erosion any more than growing many grain-type crops. Both cause erosion, and I agree that it is a problem. What type of pollution is caused by slaughterhouses? I accept that unwanted methane is a byproduct of raising cows. An unfortunate one at that. I, thus, agree that raising cows is inefficient and has some negative environmental effects. So do a lot of things that humans enjoy and benefit from. What makes them stupid? Your last paragraph, I'm sorry, doesn't make any sense to me. What difference does it make if I am capable of killing what I eat? If I am capable of killing a human, should I have no qualms with eating one? I am more interested in my destruction of a living organism and rather or not that organism is worthy of ethical consideration. I'm happy to hear that your healthy, Jose pzickler@iris.mtvernon.wednet.edu wrote in message ... >Domesticated animals are raised in a way that is environmentally >inefficient. This is the main argument (aside from nutrition) against >eating them. No one is suggesting cows should run free. What intelligent >vegetarians do suggest, however, is that it takes an inordinate amount of >water, grain, energy, etc... to raise a steer that will supply humans with >a relatively small amount of food. This is even more true of chickens. >If, instead of raising the animal, a farmer raised a vegetable or grain >crop, they could produce a much greater amount of food, conserve water and >land, and avoid creating pollution from erosion, slaughterhouses, and >cow-produced methane gas, which is actually a huge burden on the >environment (cows make a lot of gas). I don't have any particular love for >cattle, I just think raising and eating them is a stupid and inefficient >way for us to feed ourselves. > >As for hunting and killing animals, I think if someone is willing to eat an >animal, they should be willing to kill it. I don't mind catching a fish or >digging a clam now and then, so I'm willing to eat seafood. I don't think >I could shoot a cow in the head, hack off its limbs and skin, cut it up >into pieces, and eat it. So I don't. > >Does that make any sense to anyone? > >PZ >not skinny and sickly > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:46:22 -0500 From: "Jose" Message-ID: <8b0f5b$1b92$1@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Organization: They Might Be Giants, Unofficially http://www.tmbg.org Subject: TMBG: Re: Great American Meat Out Alan, I particularly like "all the cows wouldn't exist if >we didn't raise them for food and they have a nice life as a result" (so lets >breed extra humans to eat, why should the cows have all the fun?), That isn't the argument that anyone presents. Cows are raised in number because we like to eat them. We bear the cost of supporting them, and this gives us some say over their lives, i.e. they are not autonomous. This doesn't mean that they have a nice life, but I think cows have better lives than many creatures which exist in the wild. Besides that, we haven't even discussed whether cows deserve any ethical consideration. Humans bear certain qualities which cows do not, and most people would agree that they deserve certain ethical treatment as a result. "a lot of >vegetarians I know are thin and weedy" I wasn't trying to stereotype with my comment. I know around 10-15 vegetarians, all of whom lost unhealthy amounts of weight when they became vegetarians. Several had a clear increase in sickness that resulted in their giving up of vegetarianism. Thus, my personal experience in the area is that vegetarianism leads to illness. I supplemented my personal experience with research and concluded that becoming a vegetarian would not be the best choice until more concrete research showing the benefits of such a life was accepted. As a result, I stopped eating red meat. (a lot of meat eaters I know are fat >selfish unhealthy slobs) I agree. That still doesn't lend any help to the issue. and "if we take this to its logical conclusion we >wouldn't be able to eat plants either" (that one's so dumb I don't know where >to start). People who claim that they value life, and, therefore, do not eat meat should be met with this argument. You cannot exist without killing another live entity, and thus such an attempt would result in your death. The belief leads to paradox, and many judge that it is problematic for that reason. If people establish a hierarchy of life and decide that they have an obligation to only eat lower entities, this argument is inappropriate, and indeed dumb. But however the argument goes it always ends up with "yeah well, I >LIKE meat and I'm not going to stop shoving it into my fat face whenever >possible", which is what its really all about. Many modern ethical systems are based upon the avoidance of pleasure and the privation of pain. The fact that one completes an action for pleasure doesn't make them a hedonist. Furthermore, many people believe that all actions boil down to "I like pleasure" and "I dislike pain" - neither statement can be lowered any further by the question of "Why?". If that was their conclusion, you can attack them, but simply demonizing them isn't enough to refute their position. > >A hundred years from now people who talk like that are going to sound how slave >owners in the 19th century sound to us now. > TODAY many people see me as a bad person/racist for not supporting misguided programs like Affirmative Action. I try not to live my life by the ups and downs of consensus gentium. Because of the bias of media and the necessity of the times I don't agree that all slave owners were bad people. I hold those in South Africa who still today enslave people as deserving of greater moral censure. There exist in the world today certain injustices against animals. There is a smaller percentage than there was a 100 years ago. In a hundred years, there will hopefully be an evil smaller percentage. I still don't think those who eat meat bear tremendous moral responsibility for the injustices of the meat and dairy industry. >So, lets get back to TMBG... er.... Anyone know whether THE JOHNS eat dead >animals or not? > The John's do indeed eat meat. Several members of their crew, however, are vegetarian. I think they require three vegetarian meals be available for their crew when a concert locale provides meals. Regards, Jose ------------------------------ From: Christi587@aol.com Message-ID: <8a.1bc782a.260538e2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:54:10 EST Subject: NON-TMBG: Meat Out People: The point of the Great American Meat Out is not about whether we hunt our own food or not, or whether vegetarians are sickly (not true, thank you). The point is that the animals we raise for food are overwhelmingly raised in horribly crowded, dirty, painful conditions on factory farms, fed hormones and rendered parts of other animals, and killed painfully, all to provide us with a diet which is loaded with fat and cholesterol and giving us all heart attacks. The point is to think about what it's like to be that chicken whose beak and toes are cut off without anesthesia, or the veal calf raised in a box so small it can't turn around, or the pig that is butchered while still conscious because the stun bolt didn't work. The point is that animals have nervous systems like we do, can feel pain like we do, and can suffer from mistreatment just like we can. The point is for people who think they are dependent on meat to try giving it up for a day and find out that it isn't impossible to live without it. In fact, maybe it's a good idea. It's silly to argue that an animal is better off enduring suffering because otherwise it would never have existed. I would rather not exist at all than exist soley to endure pain and be killed for another's purposes. If you do not want to be a part of the Meat Out, then don't. No one is going to force you. Please don't rehash the same tired pro-meat arguments which vegetarians have heard 26 million times already. And yes, maybe this list was not the best place to post about the Meat Out in the first place, but Adrienne is not the first person in history to post something off-topic here, and her intent was not to annoy or inflame, just to inform you of an event. Let's leave this argument alone now and return to discussing TMBG, which is something we all agree that we like, right? I'll start: my favorite version of Cyclops Rock is the one with the "Somebody Took My Eye" intro, and I don't think a birthday card for Flans would freak him out any more than the card the List sent Linnell a while back must have freaked Linnell out. Hell, I'll even start the "what's your favorite album" thread if it will get people back to TMBG. Don't let it come to that!! --Christy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:10:41 -0500 From: "Jose" Message-ID: <8b0ul1$1isj$1@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Organization: They Might Be Giants, Unofficially http://www.tmbg.org Subject: Re: NON-TMBG: Meat Out Christy, >People: The point of the Great American Meat Out is not about whether we hunt >our own food or not, or whether vegetarians are sickly (not true, thank you). > I simply pointed out that the research I had examined on the benefits of a meat-free diet were inconclusive. I further stated that the vegetarians I knew were rather sickly, not that all or even most vegetarians appear that way. >The point is that the animals we raise for food are overwhelmingly raised in >horribly crowded, dirty, painful conditions on factory farms, fed hormones >and rendered parts of other animals, and killed painfully, all to provide us >with a diet which is loaded with fat and cholesterol and giving us all heart >attacks. The point is to think about what it's like to be that chicken whose >beak and toes are cut off without anesthesia, or the veal calf raised in a >box so small it can't turn around, or the pig that is butchered while still >conscious because the stun bolt didn't work. The point is that animals have >nervous systems like we do, can feel pain like we do, and can suffer from >mistreatment just like we can. The point is for people who think they are >dependent on meat to try giving it up for a day and find out that it isn't >impossible to live without it. In fact, maybe it's a good idea. > The hormones used in cows (most common is rBGH) haven't been linked to any harm whatsoever. You will have to educate me on the negative hormonal effects of those used on other animals. You describe horrible acts of mistreatment committed to animals, but the mistreatment you describe is not the overwhelming reality, despite your claims. I've visited a number of dairy farms and egg collection plants in rural Ohio and witnessed none of the mistreatment you describe. Animals do, to a degree, suffer similarly to people when mistreated. I have no problem with raising awareness, but designer holidays which tell people not to eat meat one day do little to help the plight of those animals that are mistreated. I think it is a VERY GOOD idea to raise awareness about the plight of said animals, I just don't think that a meat-out serves the point correctly. >It's silly to argue that an animal is better off enduring suffering because >otherwise it would never have existed. I would rather not exist at all than >exist soley to endure pain and be killed for another's purposes. > Nobody argued that. I argued that cows were not autonomous, and it was silly to argue about their rights. Without discussing a cow's "rights" we can all decide that nothing likes pain and it is wrong to inflict unnecessary pain on anything. Our definition of "necessary" is really the only topic of discussion. I would like to point out that even the atrocities you mentioned did not show examples of animals existing solely to endure pain. Most cattle live relatively long and healthy lives before being killed. It is to the cattle rancher's benefit that cows grow to adults and are not ill or starved. I honestly don't think that pain at death can be avoided completely in any species. We are all killed for the purposes of the group. Over population leads to unhealthy lives of sickness, so we all live on earth for only a short while. How else can a cow exist, but to serve others? In nature they are hunted for food. In captivity we eat them. In nature, everything else is hunted for food also. In captivity we all serve the purposes of our employer, family, and friends. The beauty of life is that we all serve the purposes of everyone. Rather we want to or not, we will harm and benefit other members of the planet. And yes, I hope that people bring as much joy as possible to the rest of the world while on it. Nobody likes pain, so it makes sense to avoid it as much as possible. >If you do not want to be a part of the Meat Out, then don't. No one is going >to force you. Please don't rehash the same tired pro-meat arguments which >vegetarians have heard 26 million times already. And yes, maybe this list was >not the best place to post about the Meat Out in the first place, but >Adrienne is not the first person in history to post something off-topic here, >and her intent was not to annoy or inflame, just to inform you of an event. > In our current society I'm sure that no one will force me not to eat meat. The arguments you provided were the same anti-meat arguments I hear from my vegetarian friends all the time. I could call them tired, but I never will tire of hearing the way in which people present them differently. This list was a wonderful place to present the meat-out e-mail. I think the courteous Adrienne even put Non-TMBG or OT in the subject line so that those not interested could delete or pass over it. I'm happy to be informed of the event, and even happier to discuss it. I'm not annoyed, and never was. The only person who has been angry, in fact, was Adrienne. I'm guessing that she doesn't like it when people disagree with her, representative of her angered post at those differing in their definitions of poetry. I didn't respond to her "I'm sick of you" e-mail angrily either - I simply explained my position and defended what I posted. As the list tends to be very, very quiet most days I didn't think anyone would really mind some extra messages (even if they are off topic ones). >Let's leave this argument alone now and return to discussing TMBG, which is >something we all agree that we like, right? I'll start: my favorite version >of Cyclops Rock is the one with the "Somebody Took My Eye" intro, and I don't >think a birthday card for Flans would freak him out any more than the card >the List sent Linnell a while back must have freaked Linnell out. Hell, I'll >even start the "what's your favorite album" thread if it will get people back >to TMBG. Don't let it come to that!! > >--Christy You are welcome to leave this argument alone. I will reply to any post which I feel is interesting under a non-tmbg subject line. If the post count gets high, I will attempt to move the discussion to personal e-mail. As I've said several times throughout this argument (but the angered vegetarians repeatedly overlooked) I agree with many of the basic meat-out premises. Specifically, injustice against animals exists and we have an obligation to reduce these injustices. I disagree with the way in which the meat out presents these premises, and with sweeping generalizations made by several people on this newsgroup. I didn't call anyone stupid, didn't swear at anyone, and didn't chide or chastise anyone for not knowing something I did. That puts my posts in about the upper 20% of all e-mails I've read on alt.music.tmbg or tmbg.list . The type of people who take offense at "I don't think proponents of the Meat Out present the right message" will probably also get offended at "My favorite album is John Henry". I like TMBG a lot, as does everyone here. I'm interested in hearing the opinions of other TMBG fans, and listening to what other TMBG fans listen to, enjoy, and find beautiful. For the record, my favorite version of Cyclops Rock is the "What We Did This Summer" version, giving a birthday card to Flans is more likely to be memorable than freaky for him if done properly, and Lincoln is my favorite album. Thanks for the letter and the input, Jose ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:43:06 -0500 From: Adrienne Spruill Message-ID: <38D4067A.C52DE71F@epix.net> Organization: Student Subject: Re: NON-TMBG: Meat Out I just wanted to say thank you to the folks who stuck up for me with this whole vegitarian thing. :o) -A Christi587@aol.com wrote: > > People: The point of the Great American Meat Out is not about whether we hunt > our own food or not, or whether vegetarians are sickly (not true, thank you). > > The point is that the animals we raise for food are overwhelmingly raised in > horribly crowded, dirty, painful conditions on factory farms, fed hormones > and rendered parts of other animals, and killed painfully, all to provide us > with a diet which is loaded with fat and cholesterol and giving us all heart > attacks. The point is to think about what it's like to be that chicken whose > beak and toes are cut off without anesthesia, or the veal calf raised in a > box so small it can't turn around, or the pig that is butchered while still > conscious because the stun bolt didn't work. The point is that animals have > nervous systems like we do, can feel pain like we do, and can suffer from > mistreatment just like we can. The point is for people who think they are > dependent on meat to try giving it up for a day and find out that it isn't > impossible to live without it. In fact, maybe it's a good idea. > > It's silly to argue that an animal is better off enduring suffering because > otherwise it would never have existed. I would rather not exist at all than > exist soley to endure pain and be killed for another's purposes. > > If you do not want to be a part of the Meat Out, then don't. No one is going > to force you. Please don't rehash the same tired pro-meat arguments which > vegetarians have heard 26 million times already. And yes, maybe this list was > not the best place to post about the Meat Out in the first place, but > Adrienne is not the first person in history to post something off-topic here, > and her intent was not to annoy or inflame, just to inform you of an event. > > Let's leave this argument alone now and return to discussing TMBG, which is > something we all agree that we like, right? I'll start: my favorite version > of Cyclops Rock is the one with the "Somebody Took My Eye" intro, and I don't > think a birthday card for Flans would freak him out any more than the card > the List sent Linnell a while back must have freaked Linnell out. Hell, I'll > even start the "what's your favorite album" thread if it will get people back > to TMBG. Don't let it come to that!! > > --Christy ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000001bf9131$5c370d40$1f8e7cce@lanio> From: "Lani O." Subject: Re: NON-TMBG: Great American Meat Out Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:19:27 -0800 -----Original Message----- From: Jose >I value the lives of >people above those of animals because of human's unique ability to bring so >much beauty to world, intelligence, creativity, and ability to act >altruistically. Do you think retarded people and the comatose should be eaten? Well, OK, I realize you're not talking about person-by-person consideration. It's still interesting that we, who have decided that cannibalism is wrong, do not usually make the same distinction for other animals (especially mammals). Granted, I don't think most animals eat their own kind anyway. But since humans *can* make value judgments, it's interesting that we don't usually see the same wrongness in eating animals other than homo sapiens. Just musing, not pickin' a fight. :) -Lani O. "One of us might lose his hair, but we're reminded that it once was there..." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:00:14 -0500 From: "Jose" Message-ID: <8b1c3f$1pre$1@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Organization: They Might Be Giants, Unofficially http://www.tmbg.org Subject: Re: NON-TMBG: Meat Out I stick up for your right to be a vegetarian and your right to raise awareness regarding vegetarianism. I further stick up for your right to have as many meat outs as you please. I think the latter is silly, but that is only my opinion and I fully support your ethical stance. Regards, Jose Adrienne Spruill wrote in message <38D4067A.C52DE71F@epix.net>... >I just wanted to say thank you to the folks who stuck up for me with >this whole vegitarian thing. :o) >-A > >Christi587@aol.com wrote: >> >> People: The point of the Great American Meat Out is not about whether we hunt >> our own food or not, or whether vegetarians are sickly (not true, thank you). >> >> The point is that the animals we raise for food are overwhelmingly raised in >> horribly crowded, dirty, painful conditions on factory farms, fed hormones >> and rendered parts of other animals, and killed painfully, all to provide us >> with a diet which is loaded with fat and cholesterol and giving us all heart >> attacks. The point is to think about what it's like to be that chicken whose >> beak and toes are cut off without anesthesia, or the veal calf raised in a >> box so small it can't turn around, or the pig that is butchered while still >> conscious because the stun bolt didn't work. The point is that animals have >> nervous systems like we do, can feel pain like we do, and can suffer from >> mistreatment just like we can. The point is for people who think they are >> dependent on meat to try giving it up for a day and find out that it isn't >> impossible to live without it. In fact, maybe it's a good idea. >> >> It's silly to argue that an animal is better off enduring suffering because >> otherwise it would never have existed. I would rather not exist at all than >> exist soley to endure pain and be killed for another's purposes. >> >> If you do not want to be a part of the Meat Out, then don't. No one is going >> to force you. Please don't rehash the same tired pro-meat arguments which >> vegetarians have heard 26 million times already. And yes, maybe this list was >> not the best place to post about the Meat Out in the first place, but >> Adrienne is not the first person in history to post something off-topic here, >> and her intent was not to annoy or inflame, just to inform you of an event. >> >> Let's leave this argument alone now and return to discussing TMBG, which is >> something we all agree that we like, right? I'll start: my favorite version >> of Cyclops Rock is the one with the "Somebody Took My Eye" intro, and I don't >> think a birthday card for Flans would freak him out any more than the card >> the List sent Linnell a while back must have freaked Linnell out. Hell, I'll >> even start the "what's your favorite album" thread if it will get people back >> to TMBG. Don't let it come to that!! >> >> --Christy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:18:58 -0500 From: "Jose" Message-ID: <8b1d6j$1qa1$1@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Organization: They Might Be Giants, Unofficially http://www.tmbg.org Subject: Re: NON-TMBG: Great American Meat Out >Do you think retarded people and the comatose should be eaten? Well, OK, I >realize you're not talking about person-by-person consideration. It's still >interesting that we, who have decided that cannibalism is wrong, do not >usually make the same distinction for other animals (especially mammals). >Granted, I don't think most animals eat their own kind anyway. Personally I have no hang ups about eating our dead. The only problem I see is in the mental anguish for the loved ones of the deceased. I don't think people would react well to firing up the skillet when Granny dies, so I don't make it a point to eat members of our species. But since >humans *can* make value judgments, it's interesting that we don't usually >see the same wrongness in eating animals other than homo sapiens. Just >musing, not pickin' a fight. :) The ability to make value judgements is one of several reasons why I think our race separates humans from other animals. I think the distinction is an interesting one, also. We seem to "raise our paw" a little higher than the other mammals. Anyone here read Leiber's "Can Animals and Machines be Persons" or Singer's "All Animals are Equal" ? They both deal with the issue with some degree of detail. Regards, Jose ------------------------------ From: CallMeDoctorWorm@aol.com Message-ID: <19.1f80e7a.26059e8c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:07:56 EST Subject: Re: TMBG: Similarities and Remixes I always thought SenSurround and Out Of Jail sounded alike. I love the Joshua Fried Remix of the World's Address. "I'm the one who loves you! He's the angry one, with all the swear words!" Dr. Rick Worm Chief of Surgical Staff The Worm Clinic Shaker Heights, Ohio ------------------------------ End of tmbg-list Digest #27-19 ******************************